On my Facebook today, I made this declaration, “I don’t get the whole ‘I don’t force my children to say please/thank you’ nonsense. It’s not oppression, people. It’s manners. When your kids deal w/ me, they better damn well say please, thank you, and call me ma’am.”
I won’t say I was surprised at the mix of responses or which responses came from which people on my FB. I think I know my friends reasonably well.
I continue, however, to be baffled by the growing phenomenon of viewing manners as some form of oppression. It seems to have become a new parenting trend, one that seems slightly more common in the attachment parenting world. I think it goes hand-in-hand with that whole “consensual living” stuff and, to a certain extent, unschooling. The mantra seems to be “If you don’t want to do it, we won’t make you.” The attitude is that it’s never ok to make your kids to do things they don’t want to do, that all learning can happen through modeling (not that all of these adults also model splendid manners), and that expecting polite phrases is either harmfully oppressive or teaching them to be fakes/liars. It would be laughable if I didn’t have to interact with these kids in public.
When a child is in my house, in my care, in my class (such as my writing classes), or addressing me directly, I expect please, thank you, you’re welcome, and yes/no ma’am*. I expect my own children to behave in such a way no matter where they are. I love my children. I value their lives above my own. I value children’ human rights as equal to or exceeding my own. However, they are not my social equals and they are certainly not my social betters. I am the provider and caretaker, the teacher and meal cooker and wound healer. I wipe the asses and the noses (though not with the same tissue). I will be spoken to with respect. I also treat my children respectfully, say please/thank you/etc., but I expect them to show an additional degree of deference and respect to their elders. Period.
I’m not sitting around prompting kids with, “Now, what’s the magic word?” It’s more than that. Still, if my child says, “I want more potatoes,” I’m not giving them more potatoes. I’m saying, “Is there a more polite way to ask for potatoes?” or “Can you ask for potatoes in a way that might make someone want to serve you some?” Daddyman and I say please to each other, too, and I don’t hand him the potatoes without a “please,” either. If one of my kids hits the other, I’m not just saying, “Say you’re sorry.” First I ask if they understand how hitting makes the other person feel, then I tell them the appropriate response is an apology, maybe a hug if the victim of the hit wants it. If the apology doesn’t sound sincere, we do it again, because sometimes just modeling isn’t enough; coaching on the proper way to do it may be required. A good apology involves eye contact, a polite and contrite tone, and clear speech, no half-hearted mumbling. If they refuse, they can excuse themselves from decent company until they’re ready to act like they belong in it.
Plenty of people disagree with me. I’m Smrt Mama the Oppressor, with my pushy and demanding insistence that my kids be polite. Not just “act in a polite way,” which so many parents seem sure their children can do without adequately polite language, but actually use the niceties that are a part of good manners.
So yeah, I make them say “please” and “thank you.”
Expecting your children to say “thank you” when they receive a gift, even if they don’t particularly want or like the gift, isn’t somehow compromising your integrity or theirs. It’s giving your children the language to politely express gratitude when gratitude isn’t naturally forthcoming. Prompting them to say “thank you” in those circumstances where the gratitude isn’t naturally springing to mind isn’t doing them a disservice, but reminding them that they have a social obligation to politely express appreciation that a gift (which is never an obligation) was purchased for them. By insisting on the thank you until it’s a more natural response, you are not only instilling manners, but reminding them that they aren’t entitled to receive gifts and encouraging them to keep others’ feelings in mind, to boot. Why is this a bad thing? What would you rather your children do? Say nothing at all as they cast the unwanted gift aside? If I were the gift-giver, I would not only view those children as impolite and ungrateful, but wouldn’t think very highly of the parents. In fact, if I gave them another gift at all, it would likely be How to Behave and Why.
Using manners isn’t “being insincere.” Manners are a social contract. They provide a framework for civil interaction. They not only show respect to each other, but they provide a mutual social language from which to work. They provide a method for coming to an accord, protect feelings and dignity, offer an exit strategy for a lapse in behavior. And yes, they teach important life skills. You won’t get far in the South without saying “ma’am” and “sir” (and even if you do, nobody thinks much of you). You won’t get far in business without the ability to apologize or act grateful when you don’t necessarily mean it, so yeah, the ability to apologize in a way that appears sincere is pretty useful. Honestly, acting like you’re sorry for your behavior can often be a good stepping stone towards genuinely feeling sorry.
And please, if you don’t like this post, kindly excuse yourself. Be like Billy…behave yourself!
*ETA: It’s pointed out to me that not all of you are lucky enough to live in the South, where “ma’am” and “sir” are the standard. I’m terribly sorry. Have you considered moving? Or perhaps starting a new trend of politeness where you live? 
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[...] through life. I’m not saying break wind at a state dinner (you know how I feel about manners). Just acknowledge you aren’t always going to get it perfectly right every single time. [...]
We’ve been able to skate by on this. I was talking to DH about it this afternoon – I have no idea if this is because of what we’re doing with our son, or if it’s our son’s temperament, but he uses ‘please,’ without (much) fail. He usually says ‘thank you’ as well. We talked often about why we use please and thank you when he was younger, but haven’t recently, as he’s just using them. Now we talk about saying “I’m sorry” and how others might feel.
We don’t use Mr/Ms (Name) or sir or ma’am, but I think that might be a cultural thing. Also, at this point, the only people my son is calling by name are people who are either family, or such close friends they may as well be family – Mommy, Daddy, Hammie, Bupba, Uncle John, Uncle Fritz, Uncle Jimmy, Funny Kevin… That sort of thing. I’m not sure what I want to do with this going forward, so THANK YOU for writing the post and making me think about it. I never did use Mr/Ms or sir/ma’am until I was grown, save with teachers who were always Mr/Ms LastName. So it’s something I’ll think about.
I suspect this is a large amount of YMMV. I have a hugely laid back kid who soaks up things like a friggin’ sponge (including that which I would prefer he not – he now refers to anything conflict-based as “vampires”, which I could do without XD ), so modeling works for him. If it didn’t? You can bet he wouldn’t make it to three or so without a ‘lesson’ on the matter.
As far as consensual living… My thought is simply that I appreciate when people say please and thank you, and address me with courtesy. Therefore, I will teach my children to do the same. Alongside that, I will teach them to chew with their mouths closed, wash behind their ears, how to cook, how to clean and how to speak English. These are skills they will need to function appropriately in society. It’s not doing them a disservice to teach it to them – in fact it is NOT teaching them that is going to cause problems.
Um… Okay. Apparently, I feel like babbling tonight. Thank you for the thought material, and feel free to ignore the rest. o.o;;
No, if you’re making him wash behind his ears (or take a bath unless he says he wants one), you aren’t allowed to practice consensual living. Sorry.
I know not every region of the country uses ma’am and sir, but they should!
lol That’s okay, I don’t want to be full-on consensual living anyhow. There are things I know that my toddler doesn’t, and it’s up to me to teach him not to run into the parking lot or throw toys at people, whether he wants to learn these things or not. ^_~
We don’t use it – didn’t in Chicagoland, and don’t here in SW Ontario. It would probably be a different case entirely if people around us used that mode of address, but they don’t, so we don’t. I’m figuring to ask around and see what people do now and why, and get an idea of what we want to do. It’s easy for me as an adult to address someone respectfully without calling them ’sir’ or ‘ma’am’ or Mr/Ms Whatever, but that kind of tone and subtlety is beyond a little child, so we probably need to do SOMETHING. I just don’t know what.
I grew up in California, where “sir” and “ma’am” are unheard of. But at the same time, as a child, I was uncomfortable with using first names with adults. They were always Mr. or Ms. or Dr., usually even after they’d invited me to call them by their first names.
In high school my best friend was Chinese-American. Going to her family events, I was *amazed* at how many aunties and uncles she had. It was only over time that I realized that she used that title with all of her parents’ adult friends. I loved that! It was a term of respect coupled with a “close as family” sentiment.
It’s something I would have ds do, if people here in the PNW wouldn’t think he were nuts! But he does call his aunts and uncles “Auntie ___” and “Uncle ___.”
When he was in public school, even most of his teachers had students call them by their first names. Ugh! Isn’t a teacher worthy of *some* kind of honorific?
I find myself quite aligned with everything you’re doing/saying, Morgan. I think you have a really nice balance and it’s definitely reasonable to have the expectations you do while setting examples and modeling. If only more people were in tune with what we’re doing
Morgan, I couldn’t agree with you more. I refuse to raise brats. The only thing that is significantly different for us Yankees is the sir/Ma’am. My kids have been taught to use Mrs/Mr,etc with adults when they first meet them, but our social circle and culture up here have almost 100% of non-related adults preferring to be called by their first names. I don’t see that as rude, as long as the adult is the one to initiate it.
I can’t fathom raising kids without doing your damnedest to make sure they are civilized. I would not want to be around any adult that thought that children should be allowed to run wild like that.
I agree with please and thank you but completely disagree with the ma’am thing. I was forced as a child to say that and I hated it (my dad is military) I do ask adults my children are around how they prefer to be address: Mr or Mrs or by their first name and we go with that. I would politely refuse to have my children call anyone sir or ma’am. My kids wouldn’t be in your writing class if you insisted on it. Just my point of view doesn’t mean my kids are not polite or disrespectful I just have a gut wrenching reaction to saying sir or ma’am!
Well, a military ma’am/sir isn’t the same as a southern ma’am/sir. I do think it’s impolite for a child in the south to not address adults as sir and ma’am and children in my house/class are expected to address adults thusly. If you can’t allow your children to use the proper titles of respect in my space, I guess they wouldn’t be in my space. I’m ok with that.
Amen to that! I grew up saying “Ma’am” and “Sir” and it drives me crazy when people freak out that I called them “Ma’am” because it makes them “SO OLD!” *gasp* Um, no, it’s a freaking sign of RESPECT! My boys have been taught to say that and they’re pretty good on that one. They’re okay on remembering the “please” and “Thank you” … usually if a DS or book is involved, manners DO get forgotten.
Of course, I’m the one who got so sick of my kids misbehaving in restaurants that I put on a full seven-course formal dinner for them. I do believe they have learned their lesson on that one. Being forced to sit at the table for a two hour dinner, no matter how good, sticks in your memory.
I LOVE that 7-course formal dinner idea. I might steal that if Donovan doesn’t stop getting up five thousand times at restaurants.
I am right there with you with Please, thank you and pardon me. I haven’t taught my kids yes Maam and yes Sir, on a regular basis, but if my children attended your classes, or were in your circle then I expect them to respect your wishes as a way to be polite. My pet peeve is being called by my first name by children. Most children in the south use…Miss. Stacy but some parents have a real problem with it, when they object I tell them “Fine they can call me Mrs.”Last name”. Another biggie for me is to have a child respond with “WHAT” when I say their name. I expect them to respond with yes, or interestingly enough, from my children “Yes maam”. Children have the right to be creative, and themselves, but that includes being polite and respecting others. That isn’t limiting them, it expands their world, by allowing them to be welcomed and respected back.
Several thoughts:
1) For a lot of people, I’m guessing they don’t think of it as “oppressive” and decide not to teach manners. I think they just get busy/lazy/distracted and don’t bother. Personally, most of my episodes of “parenting fail” (we all have them from time to time, don’t we?) have been when I was inattentive, rather than when I decided to do something that I later learned was wrong.
2) My pitch, to my kids, is that etiquette is *empowering*. A useful skill, rather than an obligation to kowtow to their betters. If they have good manners they will seem mature and confident and know how to act in a new situation. This will make people take them more seriously, think more highly of them, etc.
3) Some time in the last couple of years I have started saying “m’am” and “sir” a lot myself. I think it’s because I realized I was frequently replying to people calling my name with “yeah?” and I didn’t like the sound of it. I often even respond to my 8-year old with “yes ma’am?” (is that weird?) It’s not a matter of feeling like I need to show deference to the person, but more that I didn’t like the way I sounded saying “yeah?” or “huh?”
YMMV
4) Sometimes my kids remember to have great manners, sometimes they don’t. I try to remind them, but I don’t always notice or remember. I figure the skill set is in there somewhere and they can call it up when they need it. Occasionally they make me very proud when I see them not only parrot saying “please” and “Thank you” but demonstrate thinking about courtesy and etiquette in a new situation. We don’t always get it right, but I think it’s sinking in.
Ooooh, you’d be surprised how many people think “forcing” your child to say please, thank you, etc. is right up there with making them work in the salt mines.
Tara, here is a good example of what I’m talking about. The first thing that springs to this blogger’s mind is that I have “control issues” and I’m trying to oppress my kids from the inside out.
Interesting post there. It’s a big leap to suggest someone has control issues because they expect politeness. I agree with her that kids should be given respect and treated like people as they are now and not be expected to behave as little adults. However, while we are respecting their current personhood we are also responsible for helping them to grow and learn. I suppose it comes down to value and if someone doesn’t value politeness then they don’t see it as something important to pass on to their children. Because she mentions that in her world most adults don’t use please and thank you then I guess the value isn’t high enough for her. I don’t know, in my world I use those words even and especially when I’m talking to my children. Because I respect them.
I insist that my daughter says “please” and “thank you.” We don’t use “sir or ma’am” but I think it’s mostly because we don’t hear that much around here, or in our own families so it never really came up as something to say. I think she should say thank you for a gift she doesn’t like because the gift giver didn’t have to give you the gift and you should be grateful for that.
Anyway long winded way of saying I agree with you.
Sir/Ma’am is largely a regional thing, though I can’t imagine teaching my kids anything different if we ever moved.
Well, add me to the Oppressing Mother’s Club. I’m big on please and thank you and will prompt DD4 if she forgets. We don’t do sir/ma’am, but that’s more of a regional thing. Sometimes DD will call an adult Miss/Mr. First Name. I don’t enforce that unless that is how the adult wants to be called.
I also agree that manners will get you further in life than you expect. People are more willing to help, etc… if you are polite and express gratitude.
I personally will slip in a sir/ma’am occasionally (even to my kids) since military school training dies hard.
My mother is British, so we did the courtesy aunts and uncle thing when refering to adults closer than Mr/Mrs. I say Ma’am and Sir to strangers in the market (like, “excuse me, sir”, but not “yes, Ma’am.” (My father HATES to be called Sir, and will correct people on it. No idea where that came from.) I had issues calling adults by their first names only, until one sat me down and told me that if I respected her, I’d follow her wishes. My kids don’t say Ma’am or sir at all, but if they were in your class, and that is what you wanted (and if you could have patience while they learned), I’d have no issues with that.
All of my kids have had great manners from ages 2-3, I guess because we model them. Age four has seen a marked decline in my girls’ manners, though, despite our insistence upon please, thank you, and excuse me. :/
Of course, I also invite my students to, “Call me [first name], call me [Ms first name], call me [Mrs Last Name], call me Steve…but do it politely.”
Teaching good manners is in no way oppressive although I suppose like anything if it can become a battle of wills which is rarely productive.
I would say I’ve tried it both ways, reminding them and modeling only. What it comes down to for me is that my kids do not pick up good manners through parent modeling alone. I don’t always insist on ‘please’ providing their tone is okay. IOW I’m okay with “mom, will you get me some milk?” even though it doesn’t have a please, to me the please is implied. Thank you, however is required before receiving the milk.
What about apologies? I really believe that apologies shouldn’t be forced. I certainly don’t want to be forced to apologize if I’m not feeling sorry and I would prefer that the kids aren’t made to apologize when they feel they’ve done nothing wrong. Except that sometimes they HAVE done something wrong and won’t acknowledge it. I’ve tried in the past to apologize for my kids in ear shot (modeling) and found this has worked quite well for one child but terribly for the other who thinks he doesn’t have to apologize for accidents he causes and doesn’t like to apologize for purposeful deeds. So naturally, he needs a different approach.
As for sir/madam, no way in ***** but I’m a yankee and we just don’t use those terms much.
In our area most of the adults are known by first names by all of the kids which is fine by me because I don’t feel particularly respected by being called Mrs. Hampchick. It depends on the relationship though whether Mr. or Ms/Mrs/Miss is used.
Tone is as important as the wording. My children don’t always have to say please, but their language and tone choices need to be respectful. The tone/wording combo is what will carry your furthest in this life. For instance, the kids were bad about eating a bite of something and dramatically going, “Blech, I HATE this.” Along with telling them that it isn’t a polite response at our table or anyone else’s, we also talk about WHY it wasn’t (Mama/Daddy worked hard on this dinner and it hurts our feelings when they talk like that.” They have now developed a politely intoned”I don’t really care for this” or simply “No thank you” when offered something they don’t like.
I would say I’ve tried it both ways, reminding them and modeling only. What it comes down to for me is that my kids do not pick up good manners through parent modeling alone.
This is the crux of it for me. Just like with all other areas of education, modeling or “living” it usually isn’t enough. A degree of formal instruction is required in order to a) teach the nuances, b) teach the relevance, and c) make it come naturally, rather than have to be thought about. Manners SHOULD be able to come naturally. We should develop the ability to automatically speak to others as though they were people worthy of respect.
Yes, in Southern California “ma’am” & “sir” do not fly!
I’m teaching Ms. & Mr. however. I went to an exceedingly formal college where everyone was addressed as Ms. & Mr. Lastname. Students & faculty (including faculty with doctorates). It was unusual at first, but after 4 years it became perfectly comfortable to address peers by their proper title. I would like my child(ren?) to have that same comfort.
Now the rest of manners? At 2.5 we’re doing the best we can! But it suddenly became very clear that just modeling the proper behavior wasn’t going to be enough.
Again, THIS is why we’re friends. I make my children say please and thank-you, and even though we live in the middle of the Pacific Ocean, my kids are the only kids on this island who will ALWAYS say “Yes ma’am” and “No Sir”. Period. I expect nothing less. It’s not that I’m trying to oppress them…I think good manners are a necessity, regardless of what year it is. We’ve all seen that rude child who demands everything…my children will NEVER be that kid! Plus, you can’t tell me that humanity doesn’t automatically react in a more positive fashion to the polite person.
I agree that good manners start at home. Not only do my husband and I also say “please” when asking for something, I always thank him for everything, whether it be passing the potatoes or helping me bring in the groceries. It’s just polite.
Thank you for this post! I am so sick of children (and adults for that matter!!) not having manners. Please, thank you, excuse me, ect… are NOT that hard to say! Ma’am and Sir are not big here unless it’s a complete stranger situation (bump into someone with your cart at the grocery store “sorry sir!”). My kids’ friends call me by my first name, but I told them too (I hate being called ma’am). My kids are taught that they at the very least say so-and-so’s mom if not Mrs. Last Name until they are told otherwise. Most of their friends parents also go by the first name thing, but I think it should be up to the adult, not the child. We insist on proper titles for relatives too – Uncle so-and-so, Grandma, ect…
I couldn’t agree more about the issue of children’s politeness. People that do not teach manners and require their use are doing their children and the rest of society a disservice. Of course, I think a lot of the consensual-living crowd doesn’t care a whole lot about the effects of their children’s actions on society!
I can see the appeal of ma’am and sir if that’s the custom where you live. However, I would most definitely not want to move to the South. I’ll stay here in my part of the States where people largely stop for pedestrians, almost invariably slow down to allow someone who’s signaling to merge, and vote in a large majority for school and library measures–even in this down economy. I appreciate that people here do not bat an eye at same-sex or interracial couples, and that the schools I’ve seen here include books and discussions that include families of all types (e.g. single-parent or same-sex parents). I’m a stay-at-home mother in a heterosexual marriage, but I appreciate that my gay friends have never had any sideways looks from their children’s classmates. I like that the largest homeschooling group in my area is a secular group of several hundred families. I like that the norm here is to throw out your litter (or better still, recycle and compost it), and I’m always shocked at the lack of recycling and amount of litter I see on the streets of cities in other parts of the country. Would I be able to enjoy these and all the other small things like them in the South? Based on my own experience and those of friends, I doubt it.
I’m another oppressive mom… and my DS is only 20 months.
I do have to comment on the ma’am/sir thing. I grew up in the PNW – using “ma’am” and “sir” there is insulting and a form of smarting off/talking back. Most definitely not polite! I cannot begin to tell you how baffled I was when I moved from the PNW to the South when I was almost 10 and everyone tried to get me to use ma’am and sir!! I never did use it… and honestly, while I’m open to the idea that a lot of people use it as a term of respect, it always comes across as a huge insult/I’m-trying-to-be-rude thing for me.