If you’ve ever wondered why I’m not a fan of unschooling, this pretty much sums up my concerns about what unschooling has the potential to become in the hands of someone who believes children innately have the foresight to know exactly what they need to know, and thus, makes no effort to adequately prepare her children for the future. A woman on the Mothering.com forums writes:
My children have been mostly unschooled which has meant engaged kids who are lovely people.. however they are at an age where they are looking to go to college (like the end of high school, kids here in the UK go at 16). Nearly all home-schooled kids want to go at 16 and mine are no different.
Their literacy is not great though. Spelling is difficult, punctuation and grammar need some work and they need to learn eg. how to write an essay. Most books with this in are aimed at quite young children. Does anyone know any books, websites etc. that we can use to get thier literacy improving?
We have the writing strands programme which is great but we need to work on the other bits of writing which aren’t covered in this.
Any advice?
TIA x
Yes, her children are “engaged, lovely people” who can’t read or write. This isn’t the first time she’s talked about her children’s functional illiteracy on the forums, or about her children’s struggles with math and other subjects, but she has taken no advice and implemented no measures consistently enough (or at all) to lead to any notable difference. When asked if tutoring or putting the children in school is an option, her response is:
School is not an option, they lead busy full happy lives and would not want to go.
Yes we have literacy struggles. I think the eldest 2 are dyslexic but can’t get help till college. We have tried various things, programmes and books. Mostly they type on keyboard which they prefer to writing and use spell-check. They have each just completed a qualification that is an exam equivalent but with no exam and they typed the stuff up. They don’t enjoy writing so I suppose it is a wait and see, carry on what we are doing and let college help them. Thanks for your replies
I was only asking if anyone had suggestions for books that may explain spelling rules/punctuation for older kids.
There is so much wrong with this picture. SO much. How has this mother’s brand of “unschooling” failed her children? Let me count the ways:
- At least two of these children have a potential learning disability that their mother refuses to address, placing the responsibility for that on the college. Her children “can’t get help,” though I am sure they could if she were to enroll them in any sort of program.
- Her children cannot read well, cannot use grammar, cannot spell, and do not know the basics of writing an essay, yet she believes all of this can be solved by a book that “explain[s] spelling rules/punctuation.” She also seems surprised that books on basic grammar and usage are all geared towards younger children.
- Her children’s “busy lives” and “not want[ing] to go” to school apparently outweigh the fact that their mother has allowed them to reach their teen year without the basic abilities to read or write, yet she expects they will magically do well in college.
- These children have apparently never been made to do work they do not enjoy, yet she expects they will waltz right in to college and be successful there.
- These children have not been taught even the basics of writing, cannot read, cannot spell, cannot use grammar, and have not yet successfully passed an entrance exam, yet she expects they will waltz right into college and be successful there.
- She believes that it is the job of the college to teach the children the basics of reading and writing that she has failed to teach them.
- Her child, who didn’t even realize until age 14 that she would need to know these things, requested to learn them through a curriculum, and had her mother turn down that request because it would be “spoonfeeding her.”
I love how she mentions several times what delightful people her children are, as though that makes up for her complete parental failing to instill any form of academic education in her children. Being pleasant is great and all, but 16 is a bit late to be learning to read, and it’s certainly way too late to be addressing a learning disability like dyslexia. Her “engaged” and “lovely” children could have a successful career ahead of them at Chick-fil-A (which has delightfully pleasant servers). However, her daughter who does absolutely no math (outside of “money stuff”), cannot read well or write well, and who spends hours a day watching “Gossip Girl” and doing trampoline (according to this woman’s other posts) is not likely to flourish in college.
Sure, some of you will say, “Well, this lady is just one example of unschooling gone wrong. She’s hardly the rule!” Take a moment, if you will, to read some of the comments to that post (or to any posts in the unschooling forums on MDC) and you’ll find other unschoolers telling encouraging her in her gross negligence with little gems like, “If your daughter wants to go to college next year, it is up to her to make sure her writing skills are up to par. She can use you as a resource, but it is not your responsibility – it is hers,” “I’d make it HER responsibility to prepare for college- if she slacks off, the result is that she may have to wait longer to go,” “I think because our kids have choices and control over their lives, it’s unlikely that they’ll turn around and say something like, ‘You should have made me do xyz.’”
Yes, mom completely fails to teach her child anything, because the child doesn’t “want to.” Then, when that child is finally old enough to have that “oh shit!” moment and realize that perhaps a little learning might be necessary for a future, the mother is in no way obligated to help, nor is she culpable for the lack of education up to that point. The Unschooler Mantra (or “Radical Unschooler” Mantra, since all the unschoolers always say that what these people are doing isn’t “unschooling,” but “radical unschooling,” despite the fact the people actually doing it just call themselves unschoolers) — if they don’t choose to learn it, don’t make them learn it, and then take no responsibility that they didn’t learn it. Must be nice, being completely absolved of any responsibility or obligation to your children. Of course, it’s nearly impossible to play catch up for 10+ missed years of education in one or two years, but hey, let’s blame the kid!
As an aside, where did these unschoolers get the idea that reading alone will teach everything you need to know about proper grammar, spelling, and usage? Is it to make themselves feel better about the fact that their teenage daughter reading Twilight is the closest thing to an education she’s getting?
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Wow. In my world, literacy is not optional. Rowan will learn to read (and write and speak and use grammar appropriately and understand Big Words and and and). If the school I choose fails her, it’s still my responsibility. That seems kind of…fundamental to me.
I KNOW there are those families who seem to make unschooling work, but the majority of successful ones I’ve met don’t fit the true definition of the word. They still require the basics of reading, writing, and math but are more flexible with other subjects. I’ll readily admit this works well for some families.
I’ve been to the unschooling sites. I’ve read the articles. I remain unconvinced. Every hard-core unschooling family I have ever met has had children who were woefully unprepared for higher education.
In the example you cited, the woman is clearly not only unschooling she is actually putting up roadblocks to her child’s education. Once her daughter shows initiative and requests materials to learn, she is denied by her mother. This is criminal behavior, imo. I realize that many will claim she is not really unschooling. Personally, if the word is so broad as to include even partially those who engage in such behaviors, perhaps it would behoove that community to reconsider their terminology.
I’m with you on this. The conceptual stuff about unschooling that I’ve read is largely defined by the parent providing encouragement and resources when the child expresses interest.
The biggest problem with waiting for a child to express interest is that many subjects may appear uninteresting, irrelevant, too hard, etc. at first (or even second) glance. If a parent doesn’t encourage the initially reluctant child to delve into the subject matter, how will that child learn the potentials of that subject matter? How can a child at age 8 understand that certain subjects are necessary in order to get to the subjects he eventually wants to study? How many children know in elementary or middle school what they want to do with their futures, and are thus able to adequately choose the subjects the might need?
I think, and I am by no means well educated on unschooling or a representative of unschoolers, that the development of basic skills is part of the encouragement. For example, if your 9 year-old son takes an interest in insects and bugs you could take him to a local university and set an appointment ahead of time for him to interview an entomologist. Perhaps you would talk with your son ahead of time about preparing a presentation about entomology and the child’s favorite insects for friends and/or family. That presentation would include writing an essay, which could involve the parent guiding the child through brainstorming and editing, creating visual aids, and even making bug themed treats and snacks to serve to the guests.
Hmm, now I want to give a presentation about bugs to my friends. That sounds kind of fun!
To get to a point of writing that essay, however, your child will have need instruction in grammar, spelling, and handwriting, all of which require some degree of formal instruction. Integrated learning is all well and good, but it has to have a foundation, and that’s the area where too many unschoolers are lacking.
What do you do with the unschooled child who shows no interest in the field of science or math? Skip the subjects entirely? Obviously, some unschoolers seem to feel that’s the appropriate course of action.
Okay, now I’m desperate to know who you are on TWWS.
I signed up just now to see what the fuss was about. Frankly, all I found was a bunch of catty people wallowing in their stupid birth and breastfeeding choices and being general idiots.
Yikes. I was more or less with you until right there. The magazine and forums you’re referencing were enormously helpful to me as a new mom. Information I found there informed my more off-the-beaten-path choices (like homeschooling), and I doubt I’d have found much of that information elsewhere. Tarring 20,000 board members with the same brush doesn’t seem helpful.
WRT unschooling, I’ve had experiences similar to Care’s…there seems to be a large chasm between effective and ineffective unschoolers. Your post spoke to the nagging concerns I’m left with when I encounter stories similar to the one you posted.
That whole forum seems to be devoted to a degree of cattiness I could get in smaller doses elsewhere. I’m sure there are many lovely people. They just don’t seem to be the ones who made the most recent two pages of posts on any of the subforums.
Patchfire pointed out that there might have been some wires crossed here. I wasn’t talking about MDC being catty and idiotic, but TWWS.
What is MDC and TWWS. We do autonomous education in the UK and most of the stories of outcomes we hear are positive. I’m actually trying to compile a collection of outcomes, and would like to have a look at these lists.
That seems criminal. How sad for those kids.
but look! a happy ending (maybe)! this morning, she posts:
“I am doing this stuff earlier with my younger ones and leaving the unschoolong behind I’m afraid.”
that’s a step in the right direction. we hope.
I’d like to hope that’s true, but she’s been saying she’s going to make changes for over two years worth of posts that I could find. I wouldn’t hold my breath.
I’ve found (through socializing, anyhow) that there are two kinds of unschoolers. The first are the conscientious parents who really want the best for their children. They integrate subject matter into daily life, and while they have no formal curriculum nor do the drive they child’s interests in subject matter, they make a point of including the absolute basics into their day in such a way that it’s not a grammar ‘class,’ it’s a discussion on what they’re choosing to read, how the author uses punctuation, and various and sundry grammatical / usage / mechanics elements as well. It’s incredibly dedicated on the part of the parent, and the unschoolers using this method are, sadly, few and far between amongst people calling themselves unschoolers.
The second kind are the kind who don’t want to send their children to public school, as that leads to inferior education, mindless automatons, troubles with bullying, take your pick. However, they are also woefully unprepared (mentally, emotionally, or cognitively) to actually focus on their child’s schooling. They believe it’s fine to just let the children go and learn, never checking for understanding, never doing anything to ensure their child actually is doing the learning they should be. The kind response to these people is to assume they just don’t realize what they’re actually doing, and are well-intentioned. The more realistic response is that they’re just too lazy to do what needs to be done, to fight the children to have that discussion on exclamation points, who use unschooling as an umbrella to hide under while they just leave their children home and ignore them.
While I applaud the sheer dedication it takes to do the first kind of unschooling, and marvel at how difficult it must be to ensure that all educational criteria are met… The second kind are really the prevalent ones, and probably ought to be stopped – so their kids don’t end up paying the price for their idiocy. The question is how to do it without borking things up for the rest of the homeschoolers, who take their obligation to their children seriously.
I don’t think it’s fair to make generalizations about how the majority of unschooling families live and approach basic life skills. The woman and her children used as an example above suspected learning difficulties in her children. They may not have done any differently with conventional teaching.
Well, considering your website, I don’t think I have to hazard a guess at your educational philosophy.
I’ve met enough unschooling families, read enough of their blogs, and seen enough of their comments on the forums to find the “educational” philosophy espoused by most unschoolers to be suspect. Unschooling seems to be used to justify half-assed education and minimal effort making. You can’t have a conversation with an eight year old about what they’ll need by 18 in order to be adequately prepare for college, and then say “well, I told him what he needs to know, so now it’s up to him” and let him decide whether or not to learn fractions or correct verb tense usage. That ignores everything about the way children’s brains develop, ignores everything about emotional readiness, ignores everything about the fact that the part of the brain that allows for truly rational decision making doesn’t mature until much later in life.
“Free range” children may be happy to spend their day playing, but how happy are they going to be as adults, when they’re having to make up for the huge gaps in their education that their playful non-education left them? For every unschooling success story, I’ve easily seen a dozen unschooling failure story.
How much do you actually know about learning disabilities? Dyslexia, identified early, can be address in a number of ways. This woman made absolutely no significant effort, based on her own multitude of posts on the subject of her children, to find ways to help her children. “Conventional” teaching and the many alternative educating methods that involve actual engagement in subject matter with children offer many different ways to address learning disabilities. Ignoring them because you think a child will “teach herself” isn’t going to fix anything. Dismissing this woman’s abject failure to educate her children as having any impact at all on their learning disabilities is foolish.
Incidentally, Care (comment above you) offers a great breakdown of her experiences w/ the two different types of unschooling families, which very much mirror my own. Far more unschooling families seem to fall into type II than type I.
I dunno. Every unschooling family I have ever met has had kids who taught themselves to read and write earlier than average. However my child didn’t “get” reading until I started formal instruction. I wonder whether unschooling is only appropriate for a certain kind of learner?
NB for those who don’t realize, “college” usually means senior high school for people outside of the US. So a lot of students don’t learn to write formal essays until then.
We’re obviously traveling in different circles, as the unschooling families I know tend to have late readers and poor writers.
I do realize “college” in the UK is more like late high school or “junior” college, but it’s still typical in US schools to start learning how to write formal papers as early as middle school.
I do think unschooling can work for certain types of (self-motivated) learners. Honestly, my mom and I have both discussed it, and she could easily have unschooled me. That’s just the kid I was. However, I was also an very unusual kid.
I would have been like Cpt. Science, and done nothing but read all day. I’ve seen what happens when he’s left to choose his own educational course — that’s what they did at the Montessori school, and he literally spent the entire school year parked on the couch reading. He read everything in the classroom, sure, but didn’t make any progress in math or other areas.
OP says: “Nearly all home-schooled kids want to go at 16 and mine are no different.Their literacy is not great though. Spelling is difficult, punctuation and grammar need some work and they need to learn eg. how to write an essay. Most books with this in are aimed at quite young children. Does anyone know any books, websites etc. that we can use to get thier literacy improving?”
Nothing in there says she EXPECTS them to go or succeed in college. It seems that her children WANT to go. You also say, more than once, her children “cannot read well, cannot use grammar, cannot spell, and do not know the basics of writing an essay” yet that’s not what she said at all. You blame her children for being unprepared yet she is preparing them, when they need it.
What you’ve written here is terribly unfair and judgemental. My guess is that you really do not understand unschooling any further than a lack of curriculum.
Here’s some links to grown unschoolers. http://eligerzon.wordpress.com/2009/07/01/links-to-successful-unschoolers/
Kez – It may have happened naturally. There is no right age. Unschooling *can* work for everybody. Although, I’m not saying everybody should do it.
Heather, you can easily find the woman in question’s other posts by clicking on her user name, if you are a Mothering.com member. You will see that she DOES say, repeatedly, that her children are poor readers, poor writers, do not use grammar well, and struggle with math. I’m not being “unfair” by saying that. She says it, and has said it multiple times over 2+ years of posts. She also says, in her own words, that unschooling is not working for her children and that she is going to start engaging more with her younger children so they aren’t in as bad a position as her older two.
It’s great you have a link to a page of successful unschoolers, but I’m not sure what you’re trying to prove. I’m pretty sure the ones that fail miserably don’t have a website out there about them, because the unschooling community is pretty eager to sweep the sweeping failures under the rug.
Heather, I think most people will agree that unschooling appears to “work” for some people and not others. But I can see several possible explanations for this outcome:
1. Unschooling is a good educational methodology, but some parents do it ‘wrong’, or label themselves unschoolers as a front for neglecting their kids.
2. Unschooling is great in theory, but not in practice, given that it is not widely practiced and parents don’t get supported in their choice.
3. Unschooling isn’t a good idea, but some kids thrive and learn a lot in spite of it.
4. It depends on the personalities and situation of each family as to whether unschooling is a viable option for them.
(There are likely more possibilities that I’m not thinking of right off the top of my head.)
For my family, I love the idea of unschooling, but it didn’t look as though it was going to work out. I think this was partly because my Aspie child tends to feel comfortable with predictability and some degree of structure, but also partly because I wasn’t able to commit to it fully. It is quite possible that my son would have learnt to read at 8, 10 or 12 years of age, but I wasn’t able to let go and trust that it would happen. I figured it was preferable for me to be honest and tell him that I consider learning to read as a not negotiable requirement, rather than try to relax about it but end up constantly stressing about how we could trick him into learning to read!
Anyhow, that’s just our (limited) experience. I’m not commenting about the woman Smrt Mama was talking about as I don’t frequent that forum and haven’t read all the background on that family.
Smrt Mama, from what I have read on TWTM forum, I’m starting to suspect that unschooling varies regionally, and perhaps US unschoolers a a little more towards the ‘radical’ end of the spectrum, on average. Also my experience isn’t that extensive, I’m only talking about 20 or so families I have had contact with. I particularly noticed the reading aspect because it was something that annoyed me considerably. If I ever mentioned that my son wasn’t reading yet, I would be told that it’s fine, I just have to trust him, and it doesn’t matter if he learns later, even as late as the teen years. However, it always seemed to be that the people giving this reassurance were parents of kids who taught themselves to read by age 3! So yep, personal anecdotal evidence here, I haven’t seen any research or statistics about it. Unschoolers in Australia are such a minority that I wouldn’t be surprised if there were no research on outcomes.
IMO Heather is offering further information on unschooling successes for folks to further educate themselves instead of speaking on what they THINK unschooling is w/o enough information.
What is the OP comparing her children to? She seems to be opening herself up and asking for suggestions, not to be berated about her failings. We all have our strengths and weaknesses and as adults compensation for these is natural and accepted. Why are children not afforded the same courtesy?
Your vast degradation of unschooling is alarming and seemingly unfounded. We all struggle through life’s journey. Being a happy, self sufficient, delightful person who is resourceful are important qualities to have, imo.
Are you suggesting that schooled children and “home”schooled children are all stars in all subject areas? That’s not what I saw throughout my 13 years in education. The unschooling community is supportive and challenges viewpoints and ideologies. Perhaps the OP should join a group dedicated to unschooling where she can expose herself w/o being berated.
I believe it is invaluable to anyone to make judgments w/o fully researching a topic. I am not sure what you are trying to prove in your post. I don’t see how the post is helpful to anyone, unless ppl are looking to see a “failure” so they can feel better about themselves.
Thank you for your time.
I’ve researched unschooling. I simply don’t find that research to be founded in a great deal of applicable fact. I’ve read John Holt and Grace Llewellyn. I don’t agree with their conclusions. I have also seen a wide array of self-described unschoolers, who define unschooling in different ways, and I find their application of those concepts can often be detrimental to their children’s long-term education.
When you speak in a public forum, you are inviting criticism. You don’t get to decide how others will respond. She has spoken extensively in a public forum about her children’s lack of education. If she wants yes men, she should go to the a private forum of identically minded people. Obviously, I don’t mind that same level of criticism, as I both share my opinions openly in this blog and approve comments, whether or not they agree with me. I could easily screen out those comments or share my opinions only in private or to a carefully screened audience. I’m well aware that I can be (and likely am being) trashed elsewhere. That’s part of the price you pay when you air your grievances openly.
Being a delightful person doesn’t do you much good if you are functionally illiterate, can’t do enough math to manage your budget, or if you want a career more complex than dishwasher or burger flipper. If you think most kids will be happy when they realize they have huge gaps in their education, by all means, continue defending unschooling as it is modeled by this woman. I’d rather help my children develop tools for lifelong contentment and success than have them feel happy every moment now. Unschooling seems to too often be about the short run/small picture. I’m looking at the long run/large picture and trying to give my children an adequate foundation for future education.
I don’t suggest all homeschooled children are stars in all subject areas. I do say, unabashedly, that all homeschooled children should be taught at least a basic level of competency in the main subject areas, whether or not those are areas they enjoy or areas where they wish to pursue further study. Everyone needs to know how to read. Everyone needs to know how to write. Everyone needs to know proper grammar. Everyone should have basic mathematical competence. These are necessities for functioning within our culture beyond the lowest socioeconomic status. Few people excel in all areas, but basic competency should be expected and taught, and steps should be taken to help someone who struggles in an areas achieve basic competency.
The post may not be helpful to you, but I think it’s helpful as a warning of potential downfalls in unschooling, when “unschooling” boils down to an educationally uninvolved parent failing to set adequate learning standards for her children. Many of my readers have very young children and are still deciding on the schooling style(s) they will use. I can’t please all of the people all of the time, so I’m perfectly comfortable with you (or any other radical unschooling apologist) being on the list of folks I’m just not going to please.
“Invaluable,” by the way, means something to which a value cannot be ascribed, because the value is beyond estimation.
I can appreciate that we have differing views. Even though I used the improper word, “invaluable” in the context above, you certainly knew what was meant, due to context. We are both able to function despite our differing opinions.
I spent 13 years in the education field, teaching, writing curriculum, consulting, and doing staff development. I was requested by numerous parents year after year. My knowledge, educational background and experience are far more than adequate.
IMO it is not helpful to name call and be condescending when defending your view or making your point. I also think that it is poor form to take someone’s public posts and expose them in this way on a personal blog. Again, we have differing views.
I can appreciate that you have read varying literature on unschooling. I am not convinced that you fully understand what unschoolers are striving for. There is a philosophy driving a radical unschooling lifestyle. What that looks like in each family is different. There is no cookie cutter recipe to follow.
I can only speak for myself when I say that the only way I have come to understand radical unschooling is through experiencing it and seeing all of the learning that happens throughout our lives.
My children are young and possess basic skills in areas never touched upon in formal schooling, from my experience. They are learning everyday, all of the time. This happens because parents in RU families do something called strewing where they provide and facilitate opportunities for their children.
The idea that we do nothing to “educate” our children is absurd. We just follow the natural learning that occurs much like you do when children are learning to roll over, sit, crawl, walk, talk, etc. In our family children are reading and writing (they are 7 and 2) and if they weren’t yet, that would be fine with me.
I have seen the growth, trust, self confidence, and learning that occurs in a radical unschooling lifestyle in my family. Is this life for everyone? Absolutely not. Each family does what is right for them, or at least what they believe to be right for them. We all grow, learn and change with the tides.
I am not sure what you mean by “radical unschooling apologist” it seems negative, forgive me if it was not meant that way.
I truly believe people do what they feel is the best for them. I am not attacking your way of educating even though I don’t share your philosophies. I also do not bash public/private or any form of public schooling even though I choose not to send my children there. People have differences. IMO it is helpful to question ourselves and each other to further discover our own truths. Challenging ourselves and our ideologies can help us grow.
I understand your concerns about folks researching their education choices for their young children. Perhaps it would be helpful to direct them to sites like http://www.joyfullyrejoicing.com, or http://www.sandradodd.com for more information from experienced mamas with grown children who were radically unschooled.
These sites have a ton of information and links to forums for further discussion. The radical unschooling community are far from “yes men”. We challenge ideas, have interesting discussions, without patting backs. That is not what we are after.
IMO your readers would be served better by being pointed to authors and websites with information that would allow them to make their own decisions about radical unschooling or any other type of alternative schooling. Giving one example that is poor, in your opinion, is the same idea you put forth about brushing things under the rug. Folks are not being given all of the info necessary to make an informed decision.
As in the unschooling forums, I hope my post provokes though and brings us all closer to our own truth.
All the best to you,
Amy
I don’t feel any obligation to direct someone to an unschooling resource, especially not sites that play up the virtues and ignore the pitfalls of unschooling. I hope that before anyone starts any method of schooling, they put their own research into it. It’s not my job to research for others, but I feel perfectly comfortable sharing my opinions and experiences.
You write in one sentence of what “unschoolers are striving for,” yet in another talk about there being no “cookie cutter.” Perhaps you understand what you are striving for as a radical unschooler, but if you think you are speaking for the unschooling community as a whole, and that your experiences should be used to judge their actions, perhaps you need to take a more honest look at the many unschoolers whose children have ongoing areas of difficulty and even ignorance due to the lack of formal instruction. If you can’t acknowledge that they’re out there, we have no ground for a meeting of the minds, and I’ll bid you good day.
I can’t draw conclusions without having all of the information. I can make assumptions as to why things are and use the information available to come up with an opinion. I do not know what it is like to walk in another’s shoes.
From my own experience I have more clearly come to understand what I am striving for and no there is no cookie cutter way of reaching those goals.
I would imagine we can agree that people, no matter their age, have different styles of learning. I don’t think you are saying there is a cookie cutter way of formal education that works for everyone and anyone plugged into it. That was not my experience in public education
We are all free to make our own choices. I am not sure who you are looking at, so I choose not to agree or disagree with your statement regarding “difficulty and even ignorance”. I would imagine that you could apply the same statement to other types of education including homeschoolers and public school. I choose to be in community with people who are growing and learning themselves.
I can agree to disagree. I disagree that we have no ground for a meeting of the minds. I am not blind to the pitfalls of unschooling and that is why I am part of a thought provoking community. People are people, you can take a cross section of any group and find examples of excellence and examples of failings.
I believe that if people are willing to challenge themselves and continue forward movement and growth, they are on the right path.
Thank you
I admit I’m getting a little chuckle out of you disagreeing that we can’t have a meeting of the minds.
I appreciate what you’re going for here, I really do, but I remain unswayed on the virtue of unschooling for the vast majority of families.
That somehow reminded me a little bit of the Monty Python sketch where they were arguing about whether they were having an argument or not.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=teMlv3ripSM
Ugh. You’ve riled up my acid reflux, and a headache.
Unschooling works when (of course there are exceptions to every rule, blah blah) you have parents that are well-educated, model being life-long learners, have disposable income, and largely (this is pretty much across the board for homeschooling, but more so for unschooling…) a 2-parent household.
If you have parents that model TV-watching as entertainment, that’s what the kids will do. If you are going to properly unschool, you have to be ready at the drop of a hat to support the kids in their quest for knowledge. “Oh, you want to learn how fish breathe under water?! Let’s go to the river and catch one!” I’m ALL for that, and try to model that in our day-to-day lives, but we also “force” our kids to work on the things that they struggle with. For my daughter, that’s math. For my son, reading. If I left them alone, they would continue to struggle forever in these areas, instead of eventually seeing the fun and real life application in them.
As the mother of a child with speech difficulties (& an adult who had the same problems), I find it revolting that if she even suspects her children have an LD, she does nothing to get them help. In a country with free health care, she could at the least have them screened. That alone renders me totally nonobjective in regards to her parenting skills.
“Unschooling works when (of course there are exceptions to every rule, blah blah) you have parents that are well-educated, model being life-long learners, have disposable income, and largely (this is pretty much across the board for homeschooling, but more so for unschooling…) a 2-parent household.”
Nail on the head, Eryn. I’m sure unschooling can work under some environments, but that is probably not the environment in which most families live. We give Captain Science opportunities to pursue areas of great interest (we’re currently planning a trip to a video game design studio), but also require a firm foundation in areas that he might not ever decide, on his own, he’d want to study.
One final thought. Even with regards to rigorous, WTM-style classical education, a homeschooled child is still spending less time on schoolwork than a public or private schooled kid, in my experience. Why? Even if the hours of schoolwork equal time spent in school, there’s not any homework as such. This is one thing that I remember considering when EG was still tiny and we were figuring out in what direction to go. I had read every homeschool book I could find, and of course all the secular ones promoted unschooling or some loosely directed variation thereof. What I didn’t understand then, and don’t understand now, is why spending 1-3 hours on basic skills (math, writing, reading, spelling, grammar) and then having the rest of the day for “exploring interests” was such a horrible thing. I personally think my homeschooled kids still get the opportunity to “explore their interests” on top of the grounding I’m giving them in skill and content areas, which leaves me further unable to grasp the heart of the unschooling apologia.
Well, that, and most unschoolers seem to be libertarians, and I’m just not down with libertarians. Even though I did vote for their candidate for agricultural commissioner a few years ago. Hey, he wanted to legalize hemp.
I think legalizing hemp would be a great idea.
It really would, especially with the up-and-down levels of rainfall that Georgia farmers have experienced in the last several years. Plus it’s much more environmentally friendly than cotton.
Anti-microbial, too. I’m a fan!
Dang hippies.
I’m confused. Are you saying that children that have difficulties spelling are uneducated? I still have a hard time spelling, but I consider myself educated.
I also wish that “homeschoolers” would not dish on “unschoolers”. None of us are really “homeschoolers”. We’re all pretty much going against the grain, defying society, and “unschooling”. Even even the home-educated crowd cannot stand together, how can we expect the rest of the world to support us?
I disagree that all homeschoolers are unschooling. I disagree that, because I am a homeschooler, I am in any way obligated to support those who are homeschooling in methods I feel do a disservice to their children. I think radical unschooling is neglectful, just as I think fundamentalist education that teaches children (particularly girls) nothing but the Bible and some “life skills” like home economics is neglectful. I’ll be the first to praise an unschooling family who is turning out educated children who are adequately prepared for continuing education. I will neither praise nor hold my tongue about neglect out of a misguided sense of solidarity. If anything, radical unschoolers make it worse for those of us who choose to rigorously home educate. The number of people I’ve met who assume that I’m an unschooler, because I am a secular homeschooler, is really staggering. I don’t want to be tarred w/ that same brush.
I’m saying that children who have not been taught to read, do math, use grammar, or write correctly are uneducated. Children whose parents have made no attempt to teach spelling are uneducated (at least in that area). One can be educated, yet still have difficulty in an area (Patchfire’s EG has spelling issues). That’s vastly different from not ever being taught the subject at all, or being allowed to quit if difficulty arises.
I have unschooled my two teenage girls. I taught my girls basic reading when we were still homeschooling, but even then I stopped the program when they lost interest. I never taught them grammar. Both girls are writers, and have been praised by strangers for their writing ability. If a child is interested in something they can learn it. And yes, they can learn the math or whatever else they need to get into university without studying it for 10 years in or out of school!
But what about a disinterested child? Do they not need it because they don’t want to learn it?
Eryn hit th nail on the head IMHO. I have always said that I don’t have the discipline to unschool. I have a friend that left the MDC boards because she was told she wasn’t really an unschooler since she bought curricula/workbooks etc since her children asked for them.
I’ve definitely seen that attitude among unschoolers. The woman quoted in my post refused her daughter curricula at one point, because she said her daughter was asking to be “spoonfed.” I’d like to know if unschooling is really about following the child’s direction, requests, interests, etc. for some people, or if it’s actually more about being radical, alternative, etc.
As an ‘unschooled/home educated/otherwise educated’ child I feel that for the majority of us educated out of the school system completely autonomously that their is rarely a problem or at least no more than within the school system. Surely you must know some children who despite attending school prefer to watch gossip girl and have terrible grammer – I certainly know some and is poor grammer really a mark of education? I did little to no formal work apart from occasional dabbling at my own inclination and prefered writing on forums to writing essays, however, when I entered college at 16 I was at least on a level with my peers. I also know other children who parents had the same relaxed approuch and some of them are currently studying at Bristol, Imperial, Edinburgh and Cambridge university to name a few in a variety of subjects.
Neither of my parents attended university or had any other qualification in teaching, however, they have helped me and my sibling find the resources if we wish – it sounds like this is what the woman is looking for. Personally I feel that if she really wished to wash her hands of her childrens education she would have simple sent them to school, although by law responsibility for their education would still rest on her. I personally don’t understand your problem and I suspect their are many considerable more irresponsible parents you could judge instead. In regards to the comment that the majority of unschooler/home educater/otherwise educater being libertarians I would disagree.